Massimo, you write in the "why do it" section of this chapter: "....by situating yourself in the world and improving your understanding of the world's patterns, you can maintain perspective and internalize that, no matter what problems arise in life, the world keeps moving on. Ideally, as we gain more perspective on ourselves and the world around us, we will, too." Given that so much has been written about cosmological, biological, and cultural evolution, I was wondering if our focus should be directed to these "patterns" more than anything else. And, having done this much, we go on to see ourselves as evolving beings, following the universal pattern at preceding (and ongoing) levels of evolution. Indeed, perhaps the task of the prokopton itself can be seen as one of personal evolution. What better way of meditating upon nature and the cosmos and following the universal path.
Jim, good point. Yes, personal evolution is certainly a good way to see the process. And I think part of that evolution is to develop the ability to see oneself in that broader context, even up to the cosmic level.
Yes! The cosmic level! In fact, I'd like to suggest this could serve a big purpose in the context of updating Stoicism. You've often noted how a philosophy of life is grounded in a person's metaphysical beliefs. As we know, the ancient Stoics grounded their philosophy and found their inspiration in pantheism, something most of us consider untenable today. Personally I believe this lack of a solid metaphysical grounding is a problem for modern Stoicism. Therefore, what better grounding could it find than in the scientific fact that we live in a universe that is in a state of constant evolution at the cosmological, biological and cultural levels? As we already agreed, people could be motivated and inspired by aligning themselves with universal evolution, adding a sacred dimension to what it means to be a prokopton! For some, this could be understood as operating at the cosmic level, but for others it could even be seen as occurring at the divine level. And it would all be supported by some of the best science of the day! What do you think?
Jim, yes, I've argued in the past that that part of Stoic metaphysics needs updating. I would simply replace it with whatever comes out of contemporary fundamental physics and cosmology. As a result, the Stoic concept of Providence will have to go. Some find this unacceptable, I think it's fine.
I don't believe in universal evolution, unless one means by evolution simply change over time. As a biologist, I prefer to reserve the word "evolution" for the processes of organic change identified by Darwin et al., like natural selection, mutation, recombination, and so forth. The universe does not evolve in that sense. But it certainly changes! Panta rhei, as Heraclitus said.
Ah, I see....you adhere strictly to the biological understanding of evolution. Therefore my suggestion doesn't work for you. Fair enough - far be it from me to argue the point given your expertise! However, I still believe that (modern) Stoicism lacks a strong metaphysical grounding to help inspire/motivate people, whether my own suggestion is tenable or not. Then again, I also understand that many people don't require/need such a grounding. So it's all cool.
Jim, well, as I said, I think modern science provides all the foundations modern Stoicism needs. People ought to be motivated by the pursuit of virtue and the ideal of cosmopolitanism, not by the details of metaphysics. I think.
Mysteries are fun. Thus is out of place. My college first year room mate, 64 years ago got doctorate in classics at Orinceton, when they had to know Greek and Latin he is coauthor of history of z Roman republic. Revising text as we are over 80. He this last year wrote an essay in Pericles and retranslated Thucydides for better understanding. I too can mourn Pericles, but rather enjoy scorning those today who support politicians ni better than Alvubuades. Parading typis can’t read fine print. Do enjoy keeping up
This arrived at a propitious moment. The last time I saw the sun rise was last Thursday. I was keeping vigil at my wife's bedside in the Connecticut Hospice on the shore of Long Island Sound. I can't claim to have done any meditating, but I was reminded of the the Pythagorean tradition. Contemplating the slow, inevitable lightening of the heavens helped reconcile me to the cycle of human life, which in my wife's case ended that very day.
I have been a rather slapdash and haphazard Stoic, but the lessons I have learned and the insights I have gained have had a noticeable effect on my ability to navigate what my Catholic tradition would call this "vale of tears."
Thank you for all you do here and elsewhere to keep this ancient wisdom alive and fresh.
I for one don’t take pantheism literally. It’s a good metaphor for emergent phenomena, for thinking about how I am a part of a larger whole. So the foot in the mud is a parable. To borrow a Buddhist concept, these things are like a finger pointing out the moon. Once I see the moon I do not need to see the pointing finger.
Bob, exactly, I too take the foot in the mud as a parable. You know, just like most enlightened modern Christians don't take the stories in the Bible literally.
Massimo, you write in the "why do it" section of this chapter: "....by situating yourself in the world and improving your understanding of the world's patterns, you can maintain perspective and internalize that, no matter what problems arise in life, the world keeps moving on. Ideally, as we gain more perspective on ourselves and the world around us, we will, too." Given that so much has been written about cosmological, biological, and cultural evolution, I was wondering if our focus should be directed to these "patterns" more than anything else. And, having done this much, we go on to see ourselves as evolving beings, following the universal pattern at preceding (and ongoing) levels of evolution. Indeed, perhaps the task of the prokopton itself can be seen as one of personal evolution. What better way of meditating upon nature and the cosmos and following the universal path.
Jim, good point. Yes, personal evolution is certainly a good way to see the process. And I think part of that evolution is to develop the ability to see oneself in that broader context, even up to the cosmic level.
Yes! The cosmic level! In fact, I'd like to suggest this could serve a big purpose in the context of updating Stoicism. You've often noted how a philosophy of life is grounded in a person's metaphysical beliefs. As we know, the ancient Stoics grounded their philosophy and found their inspiration in pantheism, something most of us consider untenable today. Personally I believe this lack of a solid metaphysical grounding is a problem for modern Stoicism. Therefore, what better grounding could it find than in the scientific fact that we live in a universe that is in a state of constant evolution at the cosmological, biological and cultural levels? As we already agreed, people could be motivated and inspired by aligning themselves with universal evolution, adding a sacred dimension to what it means to be a prokopton! For some, this could be understood as operating at the cosmic level, but for others it could even be seen as occurring at the divine level. And it would all be supported by some of the best science of the day! What do you think?
Jim, yes, I've argued in the past that that part of Stoic metaphysics needs updating. I would simply replace it with whatever comes out of contemporary fundamental physics and cosmology. As a result, the Stoic concept of Providence will have to go. Some find this unacceptable, I think it's fine.
I don't believe in universal evolution, unless one means by evolution simply change over time. As a biologist, I prefer to reserve the word "evolution" for the processes of organic change identified by Darwin et al., like natural selection, mutation, recombination, and so forth. The universe does not evolve in that sense. But it certainly changes! Panta rhei, as Heraclitus said.
Ah, I see....you adhere strictly to the biological understanding of evolution. Therefore my suggestion doesn't work for you. Fair enough - far be it from me to argue the point given your expertise! However, I still believe that (modern) Stoicism lacks a strong metaphysical grounding to help inspire/motivate people, whether my own suggestion is tenable or not. Then again, I also understand that many people don't require/need such a grounding. So it's all cool.
Jim, well, as I said, I think modern science provides all the foundations modern Stoicism needs. People ought to be motivated by the pursuit of virtue and the ideal of cosmopolitanism, not by the details of metaphysics. I think.
Mysteries are fun. Thus is out of place. My college first year room mate, 64 years ago got doctorate in classics at Orinceton, when they had to know Greek and Latin he is coauthor of history of z Roman republic. Revising text as we are over 80. He this last year wrote an essay in Pericles and retranslated Thucydides for better understanding. I too can mourn Pericles, but rather enjoy scorning those today who support politicians ni better than Alvubuades. Parading typis can’t read fine print. Do enjoy keeping up
Reminds me for some reason of Cowper’s poem about god’s mysterious ways
Yeah, I've always disliked that "mysterious ways" thing. Always sound to me a cop out by my priest.
This arrived at a propitious moment. The last time I saw the sun rise was last Thursday. I was keeping vigil at my wife's bedside in the Connecticut Hospice on the shore of Long Island Sound. I can't claim to have done any meditating, but I was reminded of the the Pythagorean tradition. Contemplating the slow, inevitable lightening of the heavens helped reconcile me to the cycle of human life, which in my wife's case ended that very day.
I have been a rather slapdash and haphazard Stoic, but the lessons I have learned and the insights I have gained have had a noticeable effect on my ability to navigate what my Catholic tradition would call this "vale of tears."
Thank you for all you do here and elsewhere to keep this ancient wisdom alive and fresh.
Kelly, I'm so sorry to hear about your wife's passing. Glad you find a little be of help in this community.
I for one don’t take pantheism literally. It’s a good metaphor for emergent phenomena, for thinking about how I am a part of a larger whole. So the foot in the mud is a parable. To borrow a Buddhist concept, these things are like a finger pointing out the moon. Once I see the moon I do not need to see the pointing finger.
Bob, exactly, I too take the foot in the mud as a parable. You know, just like most enlightened modern Christians don't take the stories in the Bible literally.