Cicero is right. He is clear and rational with his points. However, when I experienced the loss of my good friend Dr. Jay Pasachoff last year I was devastated. I lost my friend and the uncontrollable tears were likely mostly a reaction of my selfish loss of a friend who was there for me all the time; and where I would now live in a world without him. Death is also that inconvenient truth and anchor of reality that life inevitably unfolds to the end of consciousness. But not just for me, but for all. There may be an innate feeling that arises which causes biochemical reactions and thus grief. Perhaps tears are the natural mechanism for us to overcome grief? I looked back this whole year and wondered why I was so uncontrollably devastated. This October 28th we have our memorial at Williams College and, naturally, I want to be fully composed when I meet his family again--and I believe I will be. I have improved my life and my thoughts and control of my emotions. I am fortunate to not have experienced many losses of close friends and family so, when it struck it hit hard. If he died today I don’t know if I would be as uncontrollably emotional. Our reactions, I suppose, have to do with our frame of mind, our imagination of a future without this person to share with us anymore, our life situation as whole, our feeling sorry for ourselves, and how well we practice our philosophy. This is a tough situation to manage and apply across the board in all cases. But I thank Cicero for spelling out the dynamics of experiencing the death of a loved one. 👍
Mike, thanks for sharing, and sorry for your loss. Cicero reacted in the same way when he lost his daughter Tullia. And yes, our reactions are a reflection of how we frame things in our own mind. Hence the notion of philosophical training.
I’ve always enjoyed these discourses of Cicero. The type grief that is ‘appropriate’ is death at an early age, imo... most especially parents should (hopefully) not outlive their children🙏
The most heart wrenching moments of my medical career were times when I told parents of the impending death, or severe disability, of their children…no matter their ages. I’ve never feared my own death really, even when was young-but I’ve always been terrified of the thought of one of my children dying…so I avoid those thoughts-along with a host of other things that are not in my control.
Sad to say, after 40 years of it, it gets much less hard:( But now I’m happy to be retired/and old , with “kids” who are good people, and healthy :) Rule#1 for me=Concern oneself with what you can control, treat everything else as beyond your control, and not worth thinking about unless it is actually happening/affecting you in the present…
About the case in which someone dies at a young age: what if the grief is intensified by the thought of all the potential the dead person will never have the opportunity to realise? Not so much that the dead person won't have the experiences, but that there are good things that could have happened in and through this person (not necessarily to the benefit of the one who is grieving)?
I suppose one could argue mourning a loss of 'untapped potential' is still about the person grieving, more than it can be about the one who no longer is
Sibbs, right, even that loss is not one of which the dead person is aware, and therefore it still comes back to the person grieving. And of course there really is no way to confidently say that someone would have done this or that. We can't predict the future. The person could have also turned into a nasty one who would have taken advantage of others.
Thank you for sharing this. I believe grief is a natural thing, but must be done in a natural way. It must have conferred some evolutionary advantages. In my experience it brings me closer to my fellow survivors. I grieve by comforting others and being helpful to them. I’m fortunate that I could honestly say that was what my parents would have wanted (for example).
The reminder to not create stories about the deceased suffering loss is important. It is selfish. Grief is natural, but so is hunger. Melodramatic grief is no more natural than gluttony is.
Exactly. Grief is natural and likely unavoidable. It may have some psychological and social benefits. But when it becomes prolonged and melodramatic it is self-indulgent and destructive.
https://www.gocomics.com/mike-du-jour/2023/09/27
😆
Cicero is right. He is clear and rational with his points. However, when I experienced the loss of my good friend Dr. Jay Pasachoff last year I was devastated. I lost my friend and the uncontrollable tears were likely mostly a reaction of my selfish loss of a friend who was there for me all the time; and where I would now live in a world without him. Death is also that inconvenient truth and anchor of reality that life inevitably unfolds to the end of consciousness. But not just for me, but for all. There may be an innate feeling that arises which causes biochemical reactions and thus grief. Perhaps tears are the natural mechanism for us to overcome grief? I looked back this whole year and wondered why I was so uncontrollably devastated. This October 28th we have our memorial at Williams College and, naturally, I want to be fully composed when I meet his family again--and I believe I will be. I have improved my life and my thoughts and control of my emotions. I am fortunate to not have experienced many losses of close friends and family so, when it struck it hit hard. If he died today I don’t know if I would be as uncontrollably emotional. Our reactions, I suppose, have to do with our frame of mind, our imagination of a future without this person to share with us anymore, our life situation as whole, our feeling sorry for ourselves, and how well we practice our philosophy. This is a tough situation to manage and apply across the board in all cases. But I thank Cicero for spelling out the dynamics of experiencing the death of a loved one. 👍
Mike, thanks for sharing, and sorry for your loss. Cicero reacted in the same way when he lost his daughter Tullia. And yes, our reactions are a reflection of how we frame things in our own mind. Hence the notion of philosophical training.
I’ve always enjoyed these discourses of Cicero. The type grief that is ‘appropriate’ is death at an early age, imo... most especially parents should (hopefully) not outlive their children🙏
Indeed, and of course Cicero did go exactly through that experience.
Yes-It was a very common experience in that time…the norm, really.
The most heart wrenching moments of my medical career were times when I told parents of the impending death, or severe disability, of their children…no matter their ages. I’ve never feared my own death really, even when was young-but I’ve always been terrified of the thought of one of my children dying…so I avoid those thoughts-along with a host of other things that are not in my control.
I can only imagine how hard it must have been to talk to those parents.
Sad to say, after 40 years of it, it gets much less hard:( But now I’m happy to be retired/and old , with “kids” who are good people, and healthy :) Rule#1 for me=Concern oneself with what you can control, treat everything else as beyond your control, and not worth thinking about unless it is actually happening/affecting you in the present…
Excellent rule!
Same as before I was born--nought. So live this life for all its worth, which is all.
My view as well...
About the case in which someone dies at a young age: what if the grief is intensified by the thought of all the potential the dead person will never have the opportunity to realise? Not so much that the dead person won't have the experiences, but that there are good things that could have happened in and through this person (not necessarily to the benefit of the one who is grieving)?
I suppose one could argue mourning a loss of 'untapped potential' is still about the person grieving, more than it can be about the one who no longer is
Sibbs, right, even that loss is not one of which the dead person is aware, and therefore it still comes back to the person grieving. And of course there really is no way to confidently say that someone would have done this or that. We can't predict the future. The person could have also turned into a nasty one who would have taken advantage of others.
Thank you for sharing this. I believe grief is a natural thing, but must be done in a natural way. It must have conferred some evolutionary advantages. In my experience it brings me closer to my fellow survivors. I grieve by comforting others and being helpful to them. I’m fortunate that I could honestly say that was what my parents would have wanted (for example).
The reminder to not create stories about the deceased suffering loss is important. It is selfish. Grief is natural, but so is hunger. Melodramatic grief is no more natural than gluttony is.
Exactly. Grief is natural and likely unavoidable. It may have some psychological and social benefits. But when it becomes prolonged and melodramatic it is self-indulgent and destructive.