All people are “flawed”... many lesser ‘thinkers’ find fault with Cicero, and Seneca, as humans. I only judge them, if at all, by the words in writings attributed to them-and ‘like’ them both, immensely. Anyway, as a very collapsed Catholic-from choir, alter boy to basically a non-believer of any deity, I think I agree with Cicero’s take here- the “soul” is in my view what modernity would term synonymous with consciousness...something no one really knows what it is- but know when they/I see it. :)
Yeah, it’s easy to find faults in the actions of people who lived two millennia ago, on the grounds they didn’t measure up to our modern standards. I’d love to see what these critics would do if confronted with a Nero or a Julius Caesar.
I think the Christian view is more Jewish than Platonic. It involves recreation of the soul as well as the Universe since as you say from a naturalist position everything rises, endures and dies. This doesn't affect the Buddhist position either since the Buddha transcended nature. If God can create the Universe, he can recreate it in a better way. Why? I don't know.
Thank you for summarising Cicero's first chapter of the Tusculan Disputations Massimo. I must admit that at this beginnng stage of my Stoic studies, I found it very convoluted so skipped on to chapter 2.
Appreciated: I know much less of this than you (on these subjects) my 'study', hardly study at all, haphazard with bits and pieces over a lifetime. But overall, I had a positive (justified or not) view of Cicero until I read Hudson's book The Collapse of Antiquity. As background, I have a degree in economics, I pounded nails, and designed houses, skied and sailed, road bikes up mountains, and spent a life outdoors in athletic pastimes. www.heiningerbuildingdesign.com, wrote one novel and am finishing a 2nd, now that my body is breaking down. Thanks.
J., I haven't read Hudson's book, but opinions have always been mixed about Cicero. If you want a counter-opinion to Hudson check out this Cicero biography:
Perhaps we can continue chatting. I will read your next post.
Hudson's comments deal with corruption and debt, I recommend his book. and the one preceding it, Forgive them their debts. I believe I said this before. I think they are must reads, especially for scholars and historians. Certainly, The Collapse of Antiquity stands what I learned, and what I have continued to read about Western Civiliziation, and the Greeks and Romans, on its head. If you do read the book, I would be curious about your opinion. https://michael-hudson.com/2023/05/pepe-escobars-review-of-the-collapse-of-antiquity/
I have the Robert Harris books on my kindle, also the biography of Cicero. I have read the first volume of the Harris trilogy. The other two are on my list, along with the Cicero and about another 500 more.
Not enough time, and I read slower than I once did, when I could read one of these novels in a day.
I am currently reading Barbarossa, by Allan Clark, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin ( I had never read it) and Disintegration by Andrei Martyanov.... all, so far, worth while. The Martyanov books are also, in my opinion, must read books. His book, Loosing Military Supremacy, also opened my eyes.
I usually have three or four books going at once. Next on my reading list are Tecumseh And the Prophet, by Couzens, The Oppermanns, by Lion Feuchtwanger, and I intend to see if 2034 by Elliot Ackerman is worth reading.
I recently reread the Book of Daniel by E. L. Doctorow, a novel about the Rosenbergs and the fifties... If you have never read this, it holds up and is today still an important book.
Good news! I'm reading Harris' "The Cicero Trilogy" to get a deeper sense of the historical times & Cicero himself. No doubt there's artistic licence at play. But as a teen studying ancient history, Robert Graves & Mary Renault gave more personal underpinnings for my more serious studies.
I've read those three books very carefully. They are, as far as I can tell, highly historically accurate. And I think they provide a fair assessment of Cicero, weakness and strengths well balanced in a realistic fashion.
All people are “flawed”... many lesser ‘thinkers’ find fault with Cicero, and Seneca, as humans. I only judge them, if at all, by the words in writings attributed to them-and ‘like’ them both, immensely. Anyway, as a very collapsed Catholic-from choir, alter boy to basically a non-believer of any deity, I think I agree with Cicero’s take here- the “soul” is in my view what modernity would term synonymous with consciousness...something no one really knows what it is- but know when they/I see it. :)
Yeah, it’s easy to find faults in the actions of people who lived two millennia ago, on the grounds they didn’t measure up to our modern standards. I’d love to see what these critics would do if confronted with a Nero or a Julius Caesar.
Keyboard warriors…
😆
I think the Christian view is more Jewish than Platonic. It involves recreation of the soul as well as the Universe since as you say from a naturalist position everything rises, endures and dies. This doesn't affect the Buddhist position either since the Buddha transcended nature. If God can create the Universe, he can recreate it in a better way. Why? I don't know.
I never understood exactly what people mean when they say things like "transcends nature." I don't think they know either.
Socrates would have had fun with that...
That's good to know. Thank you Massimo.
Thank you for summarising Cicero's first chapter of the Tusculan Disputations Massimo. I must admit that at this beginnng stage of my Stoic studies, I found it very convoluted so skipped on to chapter 2.
Vivian, I hear you. My podcast series will eventually cover the full Tusculans.
Appreciated: I know much less of this than you (on these subjects) my 'study', hardly study at all, haphazard with bits and pieces over a lifetime. But overall, I had a positive (justified or not) view of Cicero until I read Hudson's book The Collapse of Antiquity. As background, I have a degree in economics, I pounded nails, and designed houses, skied and sailed, road bikes up mountains, and spent a life outdoors in athletic pastimes. www.heiningerbuildingdesign.com, wrote one novel and am finishing a 2nd, now that my body is breaking down. Thanks.
J., I haven't read Hudson's book, but opinions have always been mixed about Cicero. If you want a counter-opinion to Hudson check out this Cicero biography:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/84593.Cicero
and/or this historical accurate fictional trilogy:
https://www.goodreads.com/series/51340-cicero
Perhaps we can continue chatting. I will read your next post.
Hudson's comments deal with corruption and debt, I recommend his book. and the one preceding it, Forgive them their debts. I believe I said this before. I think they are must reads, especially for scholars and historians. Certainly, The Collapse of Antiquity stands what I learned, and what I have continued to read about Western Civiliziation, and the Greeks and Romans, on its head. If you do read the book, I would be curious about your opinion. https://michael-hudson.com/2023/05/pepe-escobars-review-of-the-collapse-of-antiquity/
I have the Robert Harris books on my kindle, also the biography of Cicero. I have read the first volume of the Harris trilogy. The other two are on my list, along with the Cicero and about another 500 more.
Not enough time, and I read slower than I once did, when I could read one of these novels in a day.
I am currently reading Barbarossa, by Allan Clark, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin ( I had never read it) and Disintegration by Andrei Martyanov.... all, so far, worth while. The Martyanov books are also, in my opinion, must read books. His book, Loosing Military Supremacy, also opened my eyes.
I usually have three or four books going at once. Next on my reading list are Tecumseh And the Prophet, by Couzens, The Oppermanns, by Lion Feuchtwanger, and I intend to see if 2034 by Elliot Ackerman is worth reading.
I recently reread the Book of Daniel by E. L. Doctorow, a novel about the Rosenbergs and the fifties... If you have never read this, it holds up and is today still an important book.
I too read several books at a time. And yup, my list is also pretty long. But I envy you: never in my life I could read a novel in a day!
It was a long day, morning to late at night.
I noticed this from Charles C Smith. https://www.oftwominds.com/blogaug23/Rome-lessons8-23.html
Good news! I'm reading Harris' "The Cicero Trilogy" to get a deeper sense of the historical times & Cicero himself. No doubt there's artistic licence at play. But as a teen studying ancient history, Robert Graves & Mary Renault gave more personal underpinnings for my more serious studies.
I've read those three books very carefully. They are, as far as I can tell, highly historically accurate. And I think they provide a fair assessment of Cicero, weakness and strengths well balanced in a realistic fashion.