As a young person, insults invariably made me bristle, and become angry. As I’ve gotten older (actually, at this point ,old…) I just don’t pay much attention to what anyone says about me-I KNOW my issues, and try to do better.
Thank you for coming the term 'stoicsplaning', if only because it made me realize how often I actually do this. I have the type of personality that, when someone shares a problem with me, I feel I must jump into action immediately and attempt to solve it for them. I am well-meaning, but forget that sometimes, what they really want or need is to be listened to and commiserated with. I want very badly for my family and friends to be able to see the world through a Stoic lens, as I try to do. But this is a wake-up call to me, helping me to realize that trying to teach them in a moment of crisis is probably not going to yield the result I am hoping for, and probably not going to make them feel better, either.
I appreciate the Confucian version of this, there is an episode in the Analects that goes something like,
"Confucius was asked, 'It has been said, 'repay an insult with a good turn', what do you think of this phrase?'
Confucius answered, 'If I were to repay an insult with a good turn, then with what would I repay a good turn? Repay an insult with straightness. Repay a good turn with a good turn."
I've been working on the humor thing to some degree. If I post something on social media and someone responds in an insulting way I'll usually just reply by saying "Okay," -- that is, just kind of agreeing with them in a plaintive way. What they wanted is affirmation of their rightness and my wrongness, and I'll give them that affirmation. At the very least it makes me laugh to reveal how hollow that sort of thing is.
All I know is that no one has ever insulted me. It's like I'm a rock to everybody! And now I learn that Massimo is well endowed--never thought of him along those lines before!
Seriously, I am one of those who too often do not take insults, even from people I've never met or heard of before, stoically. I do know that my friend Massimo keeps teaching me and that I'm grateful for that. I'm especially pleased with the last bit: "not giving a crap..." and working towards eradicating injustices. Bravo!
If the insults are reactions to and claims against factual statements I've made/written, then I think it is ok to provide references as a response. That is not emotional. It is intended to inform/educate the audience privy to the interaction. However, if they are simple ad hominem smears, I have usually replied with the statement that ad hominems reflect the user. Not silent like a stone, simply factual.
It's often difficult to distinguish between what is merely and insult and what is a criticism of whether one's actions were virtuous. I've had to deal with that very publicly in the past few days. I use Substack to do citizen journalism in my small town. Two people recently gave me tips about a local politician. One of them was such a bombshell that my reporting got picked up by the Boston Globe and NH Public Radio. For this I was rewarded in social media as "disgusting," "disrespectful," "witch hunt," and - my favorite - "muckraking yellow journalism at its worst."
Without acknowledging the insults I doubled down, saying I was going to continue to do what I was doing and why it needed to be done.
Doug, indeed, the line separating insult from criticism is sometimes subtle. And we may not be the best judges in every case. Which is why we need to rely on our fellow Stoic practitioners and friends to help us out.
Even an insult may *also* be a fair criticism and we could learn from it. As Epictetus says, there are two possibilities when someone insults us: (a) he's wrong, in which case, joke's on him; or (b) he's right, in which case we better learn from it.
I was a little disappointed. I expected much more from your article. Yes, I know (I guess every student of Stoics knows ) the two Stoic reactions on insults. Ignore them or respond with humor. So, after responding with "... a bit of self-detracting humor" and discussing the issue with your Stoic friends, you wrote down your thoughts and concluded that it is better to ignore the insults. I quote from you: "...The intentions and utterances of other people are not up to us, but our reaction to such utterances is very much up to us, and the best way to handle insults is the one that Epictetus counsels: behave like a stone would. Period." Well, thank you very much but I expected something more than repeating Epictetus as if he was the Holy Preacher ! The question is HOW can we train ourselves in order to follow the Stoic principle of becoming "rocks". And this is the weak point of the Stoic concept. It's easy to say but it's difficult to achieve it. But what about the Subconscious? That inner impulse that dominates our lives? How can we tame it ? For example, in your case, you reacted with humor, but can you really state that you were not upset at all? and how long did that take? I also see that you discussed the matter with many of your friends and also in public. Even if you used this case as an example to discuss the Stoic attitude on insults, I suspect that you were at least irritated with the unfair insult. As for me, I do try to follow the Stoic practices and I have made some progress, but to be honest I can't simply ignore an insult as you (following Epictetus) advise me. The most I can do is to PRETEND to be a stone. The insulting words keep haunting me and make me angry. Only I try not to show it. But I guess this is not what Epictetus says. So I would appreciate if you could give us any practical advice on how to keep our inner "apathy" and "ataraxia" after an insult. For example: is it a matter of practice? is it a matter of contemplation? A combination of these ? something else? In any case I expect something more than general thoughts on Stoicism concluding with : "behave like a stone would".
Sorry to disappoint you. I understand your concern, and I'll address it in a moment. However, when you say: "The question is HOW can we train ourselves in order to follow the Stoic principle of becoming 'rocks,'" I can reply that that was *not* the question raised by the controversy. The controversy was whether one *should* try to react Stoically to insults or not. *That* is what my essay is about.
Second, I don't think it is fair to say I quote Epictetus "as if he was the Holy Preacher." I quote Epictetus because that is the author I agree with. Of course we can question Epictetus, and I do, in some of my writings (e.g., check chapter 6 of my How to Be a Stoic.)
Now to your question. You are absolutely right that the insult, at least initially, still bother us. You are correct that what we control is our *reaction* to the insult, not how we feel about it. This is made very clear by Seneca in On Anger, where he says that even the sage will still feel automatic emotional reactions. The goal is not to eliminate those, but rather to improve the way we handle them.
That said, Seneca also says -- and there is evidence from modern cognitive behavioral therapy that he was right -- that training will, eventually, even allow us not to feel the insult, or at the least to feel it much less than we used to.
That has been my experience: I used to get *very* upset at insults. Now I'm mildly upset, or even sometimes amused, depending on the situation.
How do we get there? Pretty much the way you describe: a combination of contemplation (i.e., reflecting on the nature of insults and human behavior, including writing about it) and practice (i.e., monitoring how we react and mindfully nudging ourselves to behave in certain ways).
By the way, exposing yourself to social media and comments on your writing is a great way to improve your Stoic practice!
I have the impression that sometimes we "feel" that we have to respond to an insult because that's what our culture has taught us, or the not always correct social rules that we apply in our lives. sometimes being a "rock" not reacting to an insult is seen by many as being a fool who let others to bully. On the other hand, I think that not reacting to an insult also depends on how we perceive ourselves and how self-confident we are.
Yes, a lot depends on cultural conditioning. To a large extent, we can see Stoic training as a program in cultural de-conditioning. Not only when it comes to insults, but to many other aspects of our lives, like the undue importance society puts on looks, or on consumer goods.
The connection between understanding and working with perceived personal insults and using Stoicism to work publicly on important social justice issues is really helpful.
Wow - there is so much here to chew on! A very deep dive into what it means to really be a stoic in real life and not just someone who tries to pass as one ( I have been quilts of this myself )! From now now I will make every effort to be a rock and an island!
Hi Patricia - I was rifting a little bit off of the old Simon and Garfunkel song, “I Am A Rock.” My thought was that we need to be a rock when insults are hurled against us, but we can never forget that we also live on islands with other people - or, something like that.😀
Hej Nils, Massimo explains the idea but in case you don't know the poem here it is:
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
John Donne lived from 1572-1631. I am wondering whether he was influenced by Justus Lipsius 1547-1606? Justus Lipsius is credited with reviving interest in Stoicism and translated Seneca. Food for speculation!
Patricia, definitely a rock but not an island! One of Stoicism's foundational ideas is that of cosmopolitanism, that we should always act in order to improve social living, for ourselves and for others.
Bill Irvine also has written an entire book on insults, A Slap in the Face: Why Insults Hurt - And Why They Shouldn't. He explores all of the appropriate Stoic responses to insults.
As a young person, insults invariably made me bristle, and become angry. As I’ve gotten older (actually, at this point ,old…) I just don’t pay much attention to what anyone says about me-I KNOW my issues, and try to do better.
Much healthier attitude!
Thank you for coming the term 'stoicsplaning', if only because it made me realize how often I actually do this. I have the type of personality that, when someone shares a problem with me, I feel I must jump into action immediately and attempt to solve it for them. I am well-meaning, but forget that sometimes, what they really want or need is to be listened to and commiserated with. I want very badly for my family and friends to be able to see the world through a Stoic lens, as I try to do. But this is a wake-up call to me, helping me to realize that trying to teach them in a moment of crisis is probably not going to yield the result I am hoping for, and probably not going to make them feel better, either.
Steve, we have that problem in common. Let’s try to work on it!
I appreciate the Confucian version of this, there is an episode in the Analects that goes something like,
"Confucius was asked, 'It has been said, 'repay an insult with a good turn', what do you think of this phrase?'
Confucius answered, 'If I were to repay an insult with a good turn, then with what would I repay a good turn? Repay an insult with straightness. Repay a good turn with a good turn."
I've been working on the humor thing to some degree. If I post something on social media and someone responds in an insulting way I'll usually just reply by saying "Okay," -- that is, just kind of agreeing with them in a plaintive way. What they wanted is affirmation of their rightness and my wrongness, and I'll give them that affirmation. At the very least it makes me laugh to reveal how hollow that sort of thing is.
John, yes, I often do something like that, either answering "okay" or simply "like" the obnoxious comment. As to imply "whatever man."
All I know is that no one has ever insulted me. It's like I'm a rock to everybody! And now I learn that Massimo is well endowed--never thought of him along those lines before!
Seriously, I am one of those who too often do not take insults, even from people I've never met or heard of before, stoically. I do know that my friend Massimo keeps teaching me and that I'm grateful for that. I'm especially pleased with the last bit: "not giving a crap..." and working towards eradicating injustices. Bravo!
Ed, sounds like you're doing pretty well, Stoically speaking!
If the insults are reactions to and claims against factual statements I've made/written, then I think it is ok to provide references as a response. That is not emotional. It is intended to inform/educate the audience privy to the interaction. However, if they are simple ad hominem smears, I have usually replied with the statement that ad hominems reflect the user. Not silent like a stone, simply factual.
Steven, sure, that works!
It's often difficult to distinguish between what is merely and insult and what is a criticism of whether one's actions were virtuous. I've had to deal with that very publicly in the past few days. I use Substack to do citizen journalism in my small town. Two people recently gave me tips about a local politician. One of them was such a bombshell that my reporting got picked up by the Boston Globe and NH Public Radio. For this I was rewarded in social media as "disgusting," "disrespectful," "witch hunt," and - my favorite - "muckraking yellow journalism at its worst."
Without acknowledging the insults I doubled down, saying I was going to continue to do what I was doing and why it needed to be done.
Doug, indeed, the line separating insult from criticism is sometimes subtle. And we may not be the best judges in every case. Which is why we need to rely on our fellow Stoic practitioners and friends to help us out.
Even an insult may *also* be a fair criticism and we could learn from it. As Epictetus says, there are two possibilities when someone insults us: (a) he's wrong, in which case, joke's on him; or (b) he's right, in which case we better learn from it.
I was a little disappointed. I expected much more from your article. Yes, I know (I guess every student of Stoics knows ) the two Stoic reactions on insults. Ignore them or respond with humor. So, after responding with "... a bit of self-detracting humor" and discussing the issue with your Stoic friends, you wrote down your thoughts and concluded that it is better to ignore the insults. I quote from you: "...The intentions and utterances of other people are not up to us, but our reaction to such utterances is very much up to us, and the best way to handle insults is the one that Epictetus counsels: behave like a stone would. Period." Well, thank you very much but I expected something more than repeating Epictetus as if he was the Holy Preacher ! The question is HOW can we train ourselves in order to follow the Stoic principle of becoming "rocks". And this is the weak point of the Stoic concept. It's easy to say but it's difficult to achieve it. But what about the Subconscious? That inner impulse that dominates our lives? How can we tame it ? For example, in your case, you reacted with humor, but can you really state that you were not upset at all? and how long did that take? I also see that you discussed the matter with many of your friends and also in public. Even if you used this case as an example to discuss the Stoic attitude on insults, I suspect that you were at least irritated with the unfair insult. As for me, I do try to follow the Stoic practices and I have made some progress, but to be honest I can't simply ignore an insult as you (following Epictetus) advise me. The most I can do is to PRETEND to be a stone. The insulting words keep haunting me and make me angry. Only I try not to show it. But I guess this is not what Epictetus says. So I would appreciate if you could give us any practical advice on how to keep our inner "apathy" and "ataraxia" after an insult. For example: is it a matter of practice? is it a matter of contemplation? A combination of these ? something else? In any case I expect something more than general thoughts on Stoicism concluding with : "behave like a stone would".
Sorry to disappoint you. I understand your concern, and I'll address it in a moment. However, when you say: "The question is HOW can we train ourselves in order to follow the Stoic principle of becoming 'rocks,'" I can reply that that was *not* the question raised by the controversy. The controversy was whether one *should* try to react Stoically to insults or not. *That* is what my essay is about.
Second, I don't think it is fair to say I quote Epictetus "as if he was the Holy Preacher." I quote Epictetus because that is the author I agree with. Of course we can question Epictetus, and I do, in some of my writings (e.g., check chapter 6 of my How to Be a Stoic.)
Now to your question. You are absolutely right that the insult, at least initially, still bother us. You are correct that what we control is our *reaction* to the insult, not how we feel about it. This is made very clear by Seneca in On Anger, where he says that even the sage will still feel automatic emotional reactions. The goal is not to eliminate those, but rather to improve the way we handle them.
That said, Seneca also says -- and there is evidence from modern cognitive behavioral therapy that he was right -- that training will, eventually, even allow us not to feel the insult, or at the least to feel it much less than we used to.
That has been my experience: I used to get *very* upset at insults. Now I'm mildly upset, or even sometimes amused, depending on the situation.
How do we get there? Pretty much the way you describe: a combination of contemplation (i.e., reflecting on the nature of insults and human behavior, including writing about it) and practice (i.e., monitoring how we react and mindfully nudging ourselves to behave in certain ways).
By the way, exposing yourself to social media and comments on your writing is a great way to improve your Stoic practice!
I have the impression that sometimes we "feel" that we have to respond to an insult because that's what our culture has taught us, or the not always correct social rules that we apply in our lives. sometimes being a "rock" not reacting to an insult is seen by many as being a fool who let others to bully. On the other hand, I think that not reacting to an insult also depends on how we perceive ourselves and how self-confident we are.
Yes, a lot depends on cultural conditioning. To a large extent, we can see Stoic training as a program in cultural de-conditioning. Not only when it comes to insults, but to many other aspects of our lives, like the undue importance society puts on looks, or on consumer goods.
Thank you very much. Your response was really helpful.
You're welcome!
The connection between understanding and working with perceived personal insults and using Stoicism to work publicly on important social justice issues is really helpful.
And I love the term “Stoisplaining”!
Thank you, I'm proud of that neologism...
Wow - there is so much here to chew on! A very deep dive into what it means to really be a stoic in real life and not just someone who tries to pass as one ( I have been quilts of this myself )! From now now I will make every effort to be a rock and an island!
Or do you mean to be a rock, but not an island? No man is an island, as per the poet John Donne
Hi Patricia - I was rifting a little bit off of the old Simon and Garfunkel song, “I Am A Rock.” My thought was that we need to be a rock when insults are hurled against us, but we can never forget that we also live on islands with other people - or, something like that.😀
Hej Nils, Massimo explains the idea but in case you don't know the poem here it is:
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
John Donne lived from 1572-1631. I am wondering whether he was influenced by Justus Lipsius 1547-1606? Justus Lipsius is credited with reviving interest in Stoicism and translated Seneca. Food for speculation!
A beautiful poem and so true!
Patricia, definitely a rock but not an island! One of Stoicism's foundational ideas is that of cosmopolitanism, that we should always act in order to improve social living, for ourselves and for others.
Bill Irvine also has written an entire book on insults, A Slap in the Face: Why Insults Hurt - And Why They Shouldn't. He explores all of the appropriate Stoic responses to insults.