If I may add one more thing here. In my long experience, having discussions that really matter are few and far in between. My guess is that I speak for most people. Sure there are exceptions, like.....when you subscribe to a group like this or the occasional discussion with the rare person you share some interests with. I think our societies are just shaped this way where people are inclined to discuss careers, money, the cost of living, their children's achievements, vacations, and yes, sports. I'm with Epictetus that it should be otherwise, but it seems....unrealistic.
Jim, yes, we do live in a society that is not conducive to higher levels of discourse. Then again, this may easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy: society does not favor X > therefore I'm not going to do X > society will not favor X...
Perhaps it is our duty toward ourselves and others to at least try to nudge things in a better direction?
When you look at it from the standpoint of duty, yes - providing we remember that we can't control the outcome! 😀 Anyway this blends in nicely with the next exercise of your book, which I'll return to.
I'm curious about Epictetus's last sentence there, "above all do not talk about men in blame or compliment or comparison." Not talking blame or comparison makes sense, but what's wrong with compliments? I see that the basis for compliments are usually value judgments, which are often unwise due to our inherently fallible perceptions, but surely complimenting has fewer complications and can be a boon to encouraging good behavior?
Mark, yes, that may sound strange. But you are correct, praise is still a judgment, which we don't need to make. Marcus says several times in the Meditations that a vine produces grapes because it's its duty, regardless of praise.
Psychologically, it isn't entirely clear that praise is an incentive. It can also be used to manipulate people, or given without cause and actually undermine self-confidence. But I agree that here Epictetus is being a bit too stern for modern taste.
I'm glad this came up because I was thinking the same thing. In fact, our praise of someone may refer to acts of virtue that correspond to one (or more) of the cardinal virtues. And such praise could certainly spur our own selves on to similar behavior.
Massimo, initially I wanted to ask you about my penchant for talking about sports, but then I recalled (and reread) your 2018 essay "A Stoic Watches the World Cup" and was relieved that it dealt with most of my concerns. One exception however was talking about games after the fact - you say a Stoic shouldn't spend extra time as a "Monday Morning quarterback" because it goes overboard. I feel post-game analysis helps me cope better with a "bad" result and simultaneously helps me sharpen my skills as a knowledgeable sports fan (which can come in handy in a meditatio malorum for future lost games! 😀) So is being a "Monday Morning quarterback" really that excessive from a Stoic perspective?
Jim, you most definitely shouldn't take what I write as *the* way to do Stoicism. I ain't the Stoic Pope! 😃 It is my opinion, however, that Epictetus would simply not approve of any sports talk at all, and I can see his reasons. So in my own practice I try to minimize the time I spend doing that. But the important thing is to work toward virtue, not which particular path one takes.
Understood. And on that note I particularly liked your use in that essay of the four virtues as they pertained to soccer (football) - I can say that my approach isn't too far off those principles! Thanks Massimo
This is one of the lessons I struggle with.I try very hard to listen more and talk less ,it works at first and then my mouth goes off on it' s own and I end up kicking myself for babbling.Most people I encounter just don't have anything worthwhile to say and I let myself get sucked into their BS because I don't want to seem rude but it takes its toll on my peace of mind and it certainly does not make me a better person which is the object of practicing this philosophy.I know it takes practice practice practice but short of saying nothing at all (thank you Epictetus) it's really hard.Then again we can't control other people and if they think I'm rude so be it,my peace of mind outweighs their opinon.
The Stoics would diagnose the fact that your peace of mind is disturbed when hearing others talk as due to a value judgement that the way others are talking is "bad". If you're interested in practicing, one way to do so would be to convince yourself that it's not actually bad on paper. Then, you can intentionally expose yourself to more situations while reminding yourself of why it isn't actually bad.
I also notice some implicit value judgements in your description. For example, "BS" and "worthwhile". Another possible exercise is to revisit Week 9 in the context of listening to others.
I have the same problem, it's not easy. But mindfulness, in the sense of paying attention (prosoche) helps a lot. A separate exercise in this series also asks us to consider whether the people we hang around with are necessarily a good choice...
Given that I live in a small retirement community my choices of people to hang out with are limited.Other than doing necessary errands I much prefer to stay home ,in other words I'm not a " people person " 😊After I retired I tried to find groups and activities which might provide some meaningful benefits for my mental wellbeing,it worked for awhile and then started to turn into obligations ,commitments and unwanted attention from people I had very little in common with.I was also turned off by the rudeness that started creeping into social interactions.So I stick with the Greco - Romans ,they are beneficial to my mental health 😉
Jill, from a Stoic perspective small talk has a tendency to devolve into gossip, which does create bonds, but not of the right kind. More broadly, the idea is that, whenever possible, it's better to nudge oneself and others toward discussions of ideas because that improves us as human beings.
If I may add one more thing here. In my long experience, having discussions that really matter are few and far in between. My guess is that I speak for most people. Sure there are exceptions, like.....when you subscribe to a group like this or the occasional discussion with the rare person you share some interests with. I think our societies are just shaped this way where people are inclined to discuss careers, money, the cost of living, their children's achievements, vacations, and yes, sports. I'm with Epictetus that it should be otherwise, but it seems....unrealistic.
Jim, yes, we do live in a society that is not conducive to higher levels of discourse. Then again, this may easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy: society does not favor X > therefore I'm not going to do X > society will not favor X...
Perhaps it is our duty toward ourselves and others to at least try to nudge things in a better direction?
When you look at it from the standpoint of duty, yes - providing we remember that we can't control the outcome! 😀 Anyway this blends in nicely with the next exercise of your book, which I'll return to.
I'm curious about Epictetus's last sentence there, "above all do not talk about men in blame or compliment or comparison." Not talking blame or comparison makes sense, but what's wrong with compliments? I see that the basis for compliments are usually value judgments, which are often unwise due to our inherently fallible perceptions, but surely complimenting has fewer complications and can be a boon to encouraging good behavior?
Mark, yes, that may sound strange. But you are correct, praise is still a judgment, which we don't need to make. Marcus says several times in the Meditations that a vine produces grapes because it's its duty, regardless of praise.
Psychologically, it isn't entirely clear that praise is an incentive. It can also be used to manipulate people, or given without cause and actually undermine self-confidence. But I agree that here Epictetus is being a bit too stern for modern taste.
I'm glad this came up because I was thinking the same thing. In fact, our praise of someone may refer to acts of virtue that correspond to one (or more) of the cardinal virtues. And such praise could certainly spur our own selves on to similar behavior.
Massimo, initially I wanted to ask you about my penchant for talking about sports, but then I recalled (and reread) your 2018 essay "A Stoic Watches the World Cup" and was relieved that it dealt with most of my concerns. One exception however was talking about games after the fact - you say a Stoic shouldn't spend extra time as a "Monday Morning quarterback" because it goes overboard. I feel post-game analysis helps me cope better with a "bad" result and simultaneously helps me sharpen my skills as a knowledgeable sports fan (which can come in handy in a meditatio malorum for future lost games! 😀) So is being a "Monday Morning quarterback" really that excessive from a Stoic perspective?
Jim, you most definitely shouldn't take what I write as *the* way to do Stoicism. I ain't the Stoic Pope! 😃 It is my opinion, however, that Epictetus would simply not approve of any sports talk at all, and I can see his reasons. So in my own practice I try to minimize the time I spend doing that. But the important thing is to work toward virtue, not which particular path one takes.
Understood. And on that note I particularly liked your use in that essay of the four virtues as they pertained to soccer (football) - I can say that my approach isn't too far off those principles! Thanks Massimo
This is one of the lessons I struggle with.I try very hard to listen more and talk less ,it works at first and then my mouth goes off on it' s own and I end up kicking myself for babbling.Most people I encounter just don't have anything worthwhile to say and I let myself get sucked into their BS because I don't want to seem rude but it takes its toll on my peace of mind and it certainly does not make me a better person which is the object of practicing this philosophy.I know it takes practice practice practice but short of saying nothing at all (thank you Epictetus) it's really hard.Then again we can't control other people and if they think I'm rude so be it,my peace of mind outweighs their opinon.
Interesting and possibly actionable observation!
The Stoics would diagnose the fact that your peace of mind is disturbed when hearing others talk as due to a value judgement that the way others are talking is "bad". If you're interested in practicing, one way to do so would be to convince yourself that it's not actually bad on paper. Then, you can intentionally expose yourself to more situations while reminding yourself of why it isn't actually bad.
I also notice some implicit value judgements in your description. For example, "BS" and "worthwhile". Another possible exercise is to revisit Week 9 in the context of listening to others.
I have the same problem, it's not easy. But mindfulness, in the sense of paying attention (prosoche) helps a lot. A separate exercise in this series also asks us to consider whether the people we hang around with are necessarily a good choice...
Given that I live in a small retirement community my choices of people to hang out with are limited.Other than doing necessary errands I much prefer to stay home ,in other words I'm not a " people person " 😊After I retired I tried to find groups and activities which might provide some meaningful benefits for my mental wellbeing,it worked for awhile and then started to turn into obligations ,commitments and unwanted attention from people I had very little in common with.I was also turned off by the rudeness that started creeping into social interactions.So I stick with the Greco - Romans ,they are beneficial to my mental health 😉
Well, as Seneca says, we have ample choice of good company across the ages, if we turn to the philosophers!
I like small talk; it creates bonds. I also like big talk, but find fewer situations that allow for big talk.
Jill, from a Stoic perspective small talk has a tendency to devolve into gossip, which does create bonds, but not of the right kind. More broadly, the idea is that, whenever possible, it's better to nudge oneself and others toward discussions of ideas because that improves us as human beings.
Habits too long ingrained are hard to shake--I've been speaking much but heedlessly for so long now--but I'll try.
Same!
Yes, long standing habits are hard to counter. But progress can always be made!