Thank you for this post, Massimo. There are plenty of legitimate and important Stoic premises and statements which are up for rational debate, and disagreement. But this isn’t one. I’ve never understood the “controversy” around this particular statement. Anyone with even a superficially passing familiarity with Stoicism in general and Epictetus in particular can easily understand the context and meaning of the comment, which is hard to take issue with (“See the world for what it is, and enjoy what you have while you have it” - what’s to argue?). In my experience, those who use this as their critical handle are just not serious. Cheap shot artists, who aren’t worth the time.
David, you may be right. But I heard this sort of criticism so many times, including from major figures in philosophy, that I figured I would write something to point people to in the future!
Epictetus is unjustly criticized in my opinion. In the Gita we read that the wise grieve neither the living or the dead, there are similar stories in Buddhism about grieving parents being given the advise that everyone dies, put it in perspective and move on. People read the Gita or the Sutras and are fine but Epictetus made it more visceral and consequently people have a more visceral reaction. As one who has lost a child I dearly wish I read Epictetus instead of the religious mambo jumbo i was brought up on. I follow Epictetus’ advice daily so that I do not take the time I have with my loved ones for granted, and so I can be prepared when our time together comes to an end, which it will with 100 percent certainty. Memento mori
Andrew, sorry to hear about your experience, it must have been wrenching. I have lost some relatives of course, several of whom were very close. And yes, Epictetus has been far more useful than the religious mambo jumbo I was exposed to as a child.
A close colleague whose son has a medical ailment & after a number of surgeries over the last 40 years he knows he is going to go blind. The young man has a positive attitude & is now a Cardiologist doing well. I can imagine what the parents are going through.. I compare this with another colleague whose 30 year old son was found dead in bed in the morning. I am sure which situation is worse. The latter one could handle as time is the best healer. The former is more difficult.
Couldn’t agree more. The Stoic philosophy stands one in good stead. One does feel the pain inside but one’s outlook to death helps bear it. Of course the passing of a child can be tolerated but what Stoics don’t address is the suffering of a child in perpetuation.
Thank you! As with your earlier article on "The unfortunate devolution of four crucial words" this was very helpful in clarifying a few things. Mind you, since coming across your books and lectures I have developed a strange craving for gelato...Fair trade off, I think. 🤷♂️
Massimo, how might we apply Epictetus’s teachings about death of a loved one towards non-literal death, eg, the end of a friendship or romantic relationship? Is there anything in his texts that suggests his therapeutic approach towards death was intended to have broader application? Thank you, as always.
Daniel, Epictetus's teachings are meant to be applicable to any situation, not just literal death. At another point in the Discourses he explicitly mentions, for instance, friends moving away, and he says the very same attitude applies. Enjoy and cherish the relationships you have while you have them. After that, life is not over, it just continues in different forms.
So, give me the strength to change what I can, the patience to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to understand the difference? Or “we have one foot in the grave--get over it”? Sort of.
Ed, yes, exactly. It is worth noting that the Serenity Prayer is a modern (1930s) Christian version of the beginnings of Epictetus's Enchiridion, which was used as a spiritual manual to train monks throughout the Middle Ages.
Thanks for the shout out! I agree that the Stoics take the red pill — AND they show that too many people who claim to have taken the red pill (I'm looking at you, oh Bro-ics) have actually taken the blue pill and continue to live on in a toxic fantasy.
P.S. "Bro-ics" is my shoutout back to Massimo since he introduced that term to me and I use it all the time!
Once agar, a brilliant exposition of Epictetus' insights for us today. Your essay brings to my mind the insights into the Buddhist Four Noble Truths, as taught in the writings of Stephen Batchelor - particularly in hi his "Buddhism Without Beliefs". Also reminds me of Suzuki Roshi's writing of the importance of seeing "things as it is".
Thank you for this post, Massimo. There are plenty of legitimate and important Stoic premises and statements which are up for rational debate, and disagreement. But this isn’t one. I’ve never understood the “controversy” around this particular statement. Anyone with even a superficially passing familiarity with Stoicism in general and Epictetus in particular can easily understand the context and meaning of the comment, which is hard to take issue with (“See the world for what it is, and enjoy what you have while you have it” - what’s to argue?). In my experience, those who use this as their critical handle are just not serious. Cheap shot artists, who aren’t worth the time.
David, you may be right. But I heard this sort of criticism so many times, including from major figures in philosophy, that I figured I would write something to point people to in the future!
And I am glad you did!
Epictetus is unjustly criticized in my opinion. In the Gita we read that the wise grieve neither the living or the dead, there are similar stories in Buddhism about grieving parents being given the advise that everyone dies, put it in perspective and move on. People read the Gita or the Sutras and are fine but Epictetus made it more visceral and consequently people have a more visceral reaction. As one who has lost a child I dearly wish I read Epictetus instead of the religious mambo jumbo i was brought up on. I follow Epictetus’ advice daily so that I do not take the time I have with my loved ones for granted, and so I can be prepared when our time together comes to an end, which it will with 100 percent certainty. Memento mori
Andrew, sorry to hear about your experience, it must have been wrenching. I have lost some relatives of course, several of whom were very close. And yes, Epictetus has been far more useful than the religious mambo jumbo I was exposed to as a child.
A close colleague whose son has a medical ailment & after a number of surgeries over the last 40 years he knows he is going to go blind. The young man has a positive attitude & is now a Cardiologist doing well. I can imagine what the parents are going through.. I compare this with another colleague whose 30 year old son was found dead in bed in the morning. I am sure which situation is worse. The latter one could handle as time is the best healer. The former is more difficult.
Sorry to hear that. Yes, hard to say which situation is more difficult to bear.
Couldn’t agree more. The Stoic philosophy stands one in good stead. One does feel the pain inside but one’s outlook to death helps bear it. Of course the passing of a child can be tolerated but what Stoics don’t address is the suffering of a child in perpetuation.
Naresh, when you write about the perpetual suffering of a child, what situations are you referring to?
"Memento gelato" eh? 😛
Thank you! As with your earlier article on "The unfortunate devolution of four crucial words" this was very helpful in clarifying a few things. Mind you, since coming across your books and lectures I have developed a strange craving for gelato...Fair trade off, I think. 🤷♂️
😆 Gelato is worth the occasional sub-virtuous behavior... 🍦
Massimo, how might we apply Epictetus’s teachings about death of a loved one towards non-literal death, eg, the end of a friendship or romantic relationship? Is there anything in his texts that suggests his therapeutic approach towards death was intended to have broader application? Thank you, as always.
Daniel, Epictetus's teachings are meant to be applicable to any situation, not just literal death. At another point in the Discourses he explicitly mentions, for instance, friends moving away, and he says the very same attitude applies. Enjoy and cherish the relationships you have while you have them. After that, life is not over, it just continues in different forms.
Like your version/explanation better than Epictetus’s...imo, his was a swing n a miss, on that one.
🙏
So, give me the strength to change what I can, the patience to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to understand the difference? Or “we have one foot in the grave--get over it”? Sort of.
Ed, yes, exactly. It is worth noting that the Serenity Prayer is a modern (1930s) Christian version of the beginnings of Epictetus's Enchiridion, which was used as a spiritual manual to train monks throughout the Middle Ages.
Thanks for the shout out! I agree that the Stoics take the red pill — AND they show that too many people who claim to have taken the red pill (I'm looking at you, oh Bro-ics) have actually taken the blue pill and continue to live on in a toxic fantasy.
P.S. "Bro-ics" is my shoutout back to Massimo since he introduced that term to me and I use it all the time!
The problem with the red pill /blue pill analogy is it just reminds me of how bad the other three movies are...
😆 you have a point...
Don't forget the "$toics"! 😛
Brian, yup, right on target!
Once agar, a brilliant exposition of Epictetus' insights for us today. Your essay brings to my mind the insights into the Buddhist Four Noble Truths, as taught in the writings of Stephen Batchelor - particularly in hi his "Buddhism Without Beliefs". Also reminds me of Suzuki Roshi's writing of the importance of seeing "things as it is".
Michael, indeed, there are some close parallels there!
Could you elaborate a bit?
Glad I could help!