I can sympathize with the idea of being more reflective of how to interpret (objectively or subjectively) and when to interact with music (I've been trying to cut down on listening to energetic rock when I'm in heavy traffic). Though not sure though how much music I can think of that we ought not to engage with in any capacity. I've only got anecdotal evidence of myself and others I have been around, but songs that seem to flaunt extreme vice aren't necessarily enjoyed by fans and probably even the artists as an actual endorsement of said lifestyle. In the same sense that I believe most people that enjoy heist movies don't actually think robbing a bank is actually ok, or Mark Hamill is actually a despicable person solely because of his attachment to having what seems like too much fun in his role as the Joker.
Well, that's where my bias as a fan of several violent video games comes in, where we are still (all) often accused of being "no-life" psychopaths just for enjoying fictional warfare regardless of even degree or even context. I don't doubt the idea that vicious people would be reinforced by vicious displays consumed repetitively, and some people can't tell what ought to or not to be actually idealized*, but actually causing the problem in the first place is where I have doubts for most people's level of consumption. I know of at least one study that contests the idea of "desensitization" and loss of empathy of violent gamers (a concern that I actually grudgingly accepted at one point) but it was from 2018 and I am hardly well-versed enough to judge its' quality and admittedly kinda skimmed through it as a result. I will say, their example of a violent game (Grand Theft Auto V) is indeed a good choice to test on, as while I haven't played it, it's a significantly popular game series rife with crime, morally flawed to flat out vicious protagonists, and borderline pornography.
*I am somewhat concerned some people probably don't realize the autocracy and over-militancy in "Helldvers 2" was meant to be satirical like its' inspiration, the movie version of "Starship Troopers".
Willy, I don't play video games, but I'm sure Marcus would not appreciate my spending time watching House of the Dragon...
Then again, he was likely talking about entertaining dark thoughts seriously, not as a result of reading fiction. After all, I'm confident he did read both the Odyssey and the Iliad, and there are plenty of bad characters in both.
For what it is worth, there appears to be a goldmine on Stoicism and music, but it has yet to be translated from ancient Greek into English. The material is collected in the Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta, volume III, pages 221-235. It comes from Philodeuius' De Musica. Although Philodemus was an Epicurean, it appears that he reports on the views of Diogenes of Babylon (a Stoic). Sadly, that Philodemus work has not been translated into English and it doesn't look like the Philodemus Project (https://classics.ucla.edu/faculty-projects/philodemus-project/) yet has plans for the De Musica. There is some scholarship on the De Musica, however, so for any Stoic fans interested, you can scour the secondary literature on Philodemus to glean some of what it reports about Diogenes of Babylon:
I can sympathize with the idea of being more reflective of how to interpret (objectively or subjectively) and when to interact with music (I've been trying to cut down on listening to energetic rock when I'm in heavy traffic). Though not sure though how much music I can think of that we ought not to engage with in any capacity. I've only got anecdotal evidence of myself and others I have been around, but songs that seem to flaunt extreme vice aren't necessarily enjoyed by fans and probably even the artists as an actual endorsement of said lifestyle. In the same sense that I believe most people that enjoy heist movies don't actually think robbing a bank is actually ok, or Mark Hamill is actually a despicable person solely because of his attachment to having what seems like too much fun in his role as the Joker.
Willy, I hear and share some of your concerns / ideas. That said, Marcus writes:
“The character of thy mind will be such as is the character of thy frequent thoughts, for the soul takes its dye from the thoughts.”
I do think there is some truth to that, though I haven't looked at the current take on it in the psychological literature.
Well, that's where my bias as a fan of several violent video games comes in, where we are still (all) often accused of being "no-life" psychopaths just for enjoying fictional warfare regardless of even degree or even context. I don't doubt the idea that vicious people would be reinforced by vicious displays consumed repetitively, and some people can't tell what ought to or not to be actually idealized*, but actually causing the problem in the first place is where I have doubts for most people's level of consumption. I know of at least one study that contests the idea of "desensitization" and loss of empathy of violent gamers (a concern that I actually grudgingly accepted at one point) but it was from 2018 and I am hardly well-versed enough to judge its' quality and admittedly kinda skimmed through it as a result. I will say, their example of a violent game (Grand Theft Auto V) is indeed a good choice to test on, as while I haven't played it, it's a significantly popular game series rife with crime, morally flawed to flat out vicious protagonists, and borderline pornography.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323063000_The_Myth_of_Blunted_Gamers_No_Evidence_for_Desensitization_in_Empathy_for_Pain_after_a_Violent_Video_Game_Intervention_in_a_Longitudinal_fMRI_Study_on_Non-Gamers
*I am somewhat concerned some people probably don't realize the autocracy and over-militancy in "Helldvers 2" was meant to be satirical like its' inspiration, the movie version of "Starship Troopers".
Willy, I don't play video games, but I'm sure Marcus would not appreciate my spending time watching House of the Dragon...
Then again, he was likely talking about entertaining dark thoughts seriously, not as a result of reading fiction. After all, I'm confident he did read both the Odyssey and the Iliad, and there are plenty of bad characters in both.
For what it is worth, there appears to be a goldmine on Stoicism and music, but it has yet to be translated from ancient Greek into English. The material is collected in the Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta, volume III, pages 221-235. It comes from Philodeuius' De Musica. Although Philodemus was an Epicurean, it appears that he reports on the views of Diogenes of Babylon (a Stoic). Sadly, that Philodemus work has not been translated into English and it doesn't look like the Philodemus Project (https://classics.ucla.edu/faculty-projects/philodemus-project/) yet has plans for the De Musica. There is some scholarship on the De Musica, however, so for any Stoic fans interested, you can scour the secondary literature on Philodemus to glean some of what it reports about Diogenes of Babylon:
https://epicureandatabase.wordpress.com/2015/12/28/reasonings-about-philodemus-on-music/
See also the book, edited by Dirk Obbink, Philodemus and Poetry Poetic Theory and Practice in Lucretius, Philodemus and Horace.
Thanks Brian, appreciated!