I am new to the group, I just subscribed. As a neurologist who comes from a Country where polio was endemic I empathized twice, as a human who is curious in philosophy and as a professional. Thank you for the great text.
I liked this as soon as I read about the use of "we." Thank goodness, a thinker and a writer who does not assume his conclusion is inevitably reached by appealing to a herd mentality even before the argument is addressed -- though I never thought that of you.
'Modern science presented significant challenges to our metaphysical views...we gradually abandoned our doctrine that the universe should be understood as a purposive, rational being'
Unless I missed something, modern science is yet to prove there isn't a rational structure to the universe (God?)
In my opinion, unless Stoicism is grounded in a belief of a logos, why should unfolding events be considered anything but meaningless?
Chris, I agree with Larry that the modern scientific worldview is not compatible with the ancient Stoic one. The Stoics thought the cosmos itself was a living organism, and their argument for its rationality was what we today call the design argument. Hume and Darwin demolished the design argument, and as a biologist I see no reason to think the cosmos is alive.
You are correct that this move eliminates the concept of Stoic providence. Larry would say, too bad. He addresses the issue in depth in A New Stoicism. I wrote an update to Epictetus’s Enchiridion, A Field Guide to the Good Lie, in which I also tackle the issue.
Chris, well, yes, Stoicism without providence is a bit of a loss. But the Stoics themselves would say that reality is what it is, and Seneca admonished us to be open to change our minds when you truths are discovered.
Both Larry and I, however, in different ways, make a decent case that the new Stoicism is still both unique and very compelling.
Wasn't there world of difference between Zeno and followers and - say - Epictetus/Marcus Aurelius half a millennium later with respect to their metaphysics.
Massimo once said (referring to one of the ancient stoics?) something like that the conclusions of Stoicism do not depend on the precise nature of the functioning of the world, including whether there is sense to providence etc.
Maurits, as far as I know the late Roman Stoics had pretty much the same metaphysical beliefs as the early Greek ones.
But yes, both Larry Becker and I argue, on different grounds, that Stoicism retains much of its structure and value regardless of whether one buys into the ancient concept of providence or not.
60! I don’t remember passing that marker. My wife and I are old New Stoics. 79/80 and 86. We delight in your offers. The very best in the new effort. Impressed with your get up & go.
I have always called this philosophy my religion and have never understood why anyone would say it can't be for someone In that, I've often wondered why more people aren't trying harder to rebuild the Stoic Schools that were the precursors to what would have become the Stoic religion if Christianity hadn't usurped the momentum and progress of our philosophy.
I too came to practice this philosophy in 2014 after failing the bar exam the first time. Now, as I have begun to transition away from being a trial lawyer over the past year to philosopher, I have gone from envisioning a modern Stoic "church" that would serve the same needs for the same audience of Christians who have lost their faith to actually working to build it. I have a modest online presence with weekly and daily meetings, but am working towards brick and mortar funding now. I see myself as the modern Gaius Musonius Rufus, trying to cast stones at people, criticizing them until they will look at my way of life and what I have to say. I have to do this because I am the epitome of an outsider. I don't have the professional network or personal or familial means to do this on my own and will need people like you and John Sellars and Donald Robinson and Bill Irvine to continue to succeed so I can point to your success at helping people get this message It will be the hardest thing I will ever do, but it will continue to be the most fun and most fulfilling things I have ever done in my life. I am in metro Detroit, but please let me know how you think I may help you...one day or today. Also, thanks for the inspiration to call out your fellow philosophers for not dong exactly what you say you are doing in this post. https://dominioncounsel.us/blog/my-duty
I sense this couldn’t be coming at a better time. No, Massimo, you cannot sit on this until retirement! 😊 I’ll toss zeitgeist as the word that is reason the New Stoicism’s time has come. A Stoicism that tunes itself for the spirit of the times; and tailors its message for the new media of communication. Most people are looking to better handle the forces of life, in order to live a better life, to be a better “life,” as in human being. I was deeply inspired by Larry Becker’s video and reading the American Experience interview. Having a disability, and subsequently a gauntlet of personal challenges and further injuries, it was inspiring to hear this unique man. All his words uttered are priceless gems. His analogy of pilot training, but doing so while flying, couldn’t be more appropriate. Moreover, he touched me when he stressed the importance of living in harmony. And then when he spoke the crucial advice to know your limits so, you don’t crash into a brick wall, and fail in front of abled eyes, or critically in front of yourself, he’s actually giving the secret tip most miss to maximizing, in good health, and in good spirit, our brief time of consciousness. In flight school you are taught to “fly ahead of the plane.” What that means is to be exceptionally aware of your surroundings and your course. The Air Force calls it ESA: Exceptional Situational Awareness. A supposed quality only of “Top Gun” pilots.
The final impressive takeaway I’ll mention from Larry’s video is focusing on your abilities rather than your disabilities. I can never be told this enough. This philosophy can also apply to anyone, relatively speaking, in terms of strengths and weaknesses. I know I only opened my eyes to Stoicism recently and it already changed me--for the better, I hope. 😊 But I do believe I see its sparkling reflection in my friends. ✨
I look forward to this New School and will pass the word on. Yes, it’s time has come. 👍😊
Mike, all right, all right, I won't wait until retirement! 😆
I'm so glad Larry's words struck a chord with you. He truly was an amazing person, and I count myself very fortunate to have met him and then corresponded with him until he passed away. He treated me like a friend, even though I entered his life very late.
I've signed up for email updates on the school for a new Stoicism, and I look forward to further developments. Massimo, here's a very important topic that I think needs to be addressed more fully: Stoicism and global warming. I've been looking into the science of climate change to become better informed about it, and the more I learn the more bleak the future looks for our current way of life on earth. It seems clear that we're not going to be able to reduce CO2 emissions enough to avert disaster. The societal disruption of the recent pandemic could be seen as a mild warm-up for what lies ahead. Many of us found Stoicism to be an extremely helpful philosophy for weathering that COVID storm. I think we need to focus more on on how to prepare ourselves and, more importantly, the younger generation, with a Stoic mindset for facing the havoc to come. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and those of other Stoics as well.
Thanks, Massimo, for the recommendation of Chris Gill's book in relation to global warming. It is a hefty price, but I admire his work and I'm sure it will be worth it!
I am new to the group, I just subscribed. As a neurologist who comes from a Country where polio was endemic I empathized twice, as a human who is curious in philosophy and as a professional. Thank you for the great text.
Marcelo, thanks for the kind words, and welcome to the community!
beautiful and inspiring words Massimo. I could feel your wonderful energy in every word 😊
Much appreciated, Eliza!
I liked this as soon as I read about the use of "we." Thank goodness, a thinker and a writer who does not assume his conclusion is inevitably reached by appealing to a herd mentality even before the argument is addressed -- though I never thought that of you.
Appreciated, Richard.
'Modern science presented significant challenges to our metaphysical views...we gradually abandoned our doctrine that the universe should be understood as a purposive, rational being'
Unless I missed something, modern science is yet to prove there isn't a rational structure to the universe (God?)
In my opinion, unless Stoicism is grounded in a belief of a logos, why should unfolding events be considered anything but meaningless?
Chris, I agree with Larry that the modern scientific worldview is not compatible with the ancient Stoic one. The Stoics thought the cosmos itself was a living organism, and their argument for its rationality was what we today call the design argument. Hume and Darwin demolished the design argument, and as a biologist I see no reason to think the cosmos is alive.
You are correct that this move eliminates the concept of Stoic providence. Larry would say, too bad. He addresses the issue in depth in A New Stoicism. I wrote an update to Epictetus’s Enchiridion, A Field Guide to the Good Lie, in which I also tackle the issue.
Thank you Massimo 🙏🏻 I believe Stoicism without some belief in providence becomes less unique and compelling. Just my opinion.
Chris, well, yes, Stoicism without providence is a bit of a loss. But the Stoics themselves would say that reality is what it is, and Seneca admonished us to be open to change our minds when you truths are discovered.
Both Larry and I, however, in different ways, make a decent case that the new Stoicism is still both unique and very compelling.
Wasn't there world of difference between Zeno and followers and - say - Epictetus/Marcus Aurelius half a millennium later with respect to their metaphysics.
Massimo once said (referring to one of the ancient stoics?) something like that the conclusions of Stoicism do not depend on the precise nature of the functioning of the world, including whether there is sense to providence etc.
Maurits, as far as I know the late Roman Stoics had pretty much the same metaphysical beliefs as the early Greek ones.
But yes, both Larry Becker and I argue, on different grounds, that Stoicism retains much of its structure and value regardless of whether one buys into the ancient concept of providence or not.
Ah, OK, thanks!
Btw, I have a 7.5hr train ride and will start your document on Becker's book - necessary as that one was to hard for a dilettante.
Ah, OK, thanks!
Btw, I have a 7.5hr train ride and will start your document on Becker's book - necessary as that one was to hard for a dilettante.
60! I don’t remember passing that marker. My wife and I are old New Stoics. 79/80 and 86. We delight in your offers. The very best in the new effort. Impressed with your get up & go.
Thanks Roger, appreciated!
I have always called this philosophy my religion and have never understood why anyone would say it can't be for someone In that, I've often wondered why more people aren't trying harder to rebuild the Stoic Schools that were the precursors to what would have become the Stoic religion if Christianity hadn't usurped the momentum and progress of our philosophy.
I too came to practice this philosophy in 2014 after failing the bar exam the first time. Now, as I have begun to transition away from being a trial lawyer over the past year to philosopher, I have gone from envisioning a modern Stoic "church" that would serve the same needs for the same audience of Christians who have lost their faith to actually working to build it. I have a modest online presence with weekly and daily meetings, but am working towards brick and mortar funding now. I see myself as the modern Gaius Musonius Rufus, trying to cast stones at people, criticizing them until they will look at my way of life and what I have to say. I have to do this because I am the epitome of an outsider. I don't have the professional network or personal or familial means to do this on my own and will need people like you and John Sellars and Donald Robinson and Bill Irvine to continue to succeed so I can point to your success at helping people get this message It will be the hardest thing I will ever do, but it will continue to be the most fun and most fulfilling things I have ever done in my life. I am in metro Detroit, but please let me know how you think I may help you...one day or today. Also, thanks for the inspiration to call out your fellow philosophers for not dong exactly what you say you are doing in this post. https://dominioncounsel.us/blog/my-duty
Eric, thanks for the offer to help! Hang around, there will likely be chances!
I sense this couldn’t be coming at a better time. No, Massimo, you cannot sit on this until retirement! 😊 I’ll toss zeitgeist as the word that is reason the New Stoicism’s time has come. A Stoicism that tunes itself for the spirit of the times; and tailors its message for the new media of communication. Most people are looking to better handle the forces of life, in order to live a better life, to be a better “life,” as in human being. I was deeply inspired by Larry Becker’s video and reading the American Experience interview. Having a disability, and subsequently a gauntlet of personal challenges and further injuries, it was inspiring to hear this unique man. All his words uttered are priceless gems. His analogy of pilot training, but doing so while flying, couldn’t be more appropriate. Moreover, he touched me when he stressed the importance of living in harmony. And then when he spoke the crucial advice to know your limits so, you don’t crash into a brick wall, and fail in front of abled eyes, or critically in front of yourself, he’s actually giving the secret tip most miss to maximizing, in good health, and in good spirit, our brief time of consciousness. In flight school you are taught to “fly ahead of the plane.” What that means is to be exceptionally aware of your surroundings and your course. The Air Force calls it ESA: Exceptional Situational Awareness. A supposed quality only of “Top Gun” pilots.
The final impressive takeaway I’ll mention from Larry’s video is focusing on your abilities rather than your disabilities. I can never be told this enough. This philosophy can also apply to anyone, relatively speaking, in terms of strengths and weaknesses. I know I only opened my eyes to Stoicism recently and it already changed me--for the better, I hope. 😊 But I do believe I see its sparkling reflection in my friends. ✨
I look forward to this New School and will pass the word on. Yes, it’s time has come. 👍😊
Mike, all right, all right, I won't wait until retirement! 😆
I'm so glad Larry's words struck a chord with you. He truly was an amazing person, and I count myself very fortunate to have met him and then corresponded with him until he passed away. He treated me like a friend, even though I entered his life very late.
I’m very excited to see this come together.
I've signed up for email updates on the school for a new Stoicism, and I look forward to further developments. Massimo, here's a very important topic that I think needs to be addressed more fully: Stoicism and global warming. I've been looking into the science of climate change to become better informed about it, and the more I learn the more bleak the future looks for our current way of life on earth. It seems clear that we're not going to be able to reduce CO2 emissions enough to avert disaster. The societal disruption of the recent pandemic could be seen as a mild warm-up for what lies ahead. Many of us found Stoicism to be an extremely helpful philosophy for weathering that COVID storm. I think we need to focus more on on how to prepare ourselves and, more importantly, the younger generation, with a Stoic mindset for facing the havoc to come. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and those of other Stoics as well.
Rod, I'm in complete agreement, and hopefully we can all articulate thoughts about this in the Figs in Winter forum.
Meanwhile, check out the latest book by my colleague Chris Gill: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62871660-learning-to-live-naturally
Unfortunately it does come with a hefty price tag, being published by an academic press.
Thanks, Massimo, for the recommendation of Chris Gill's book in relation to global warming. It is a hefty price, but I admire his work and I'm sure it will be worth it!
Yes, very exciting indeed, and what a stellar line-up. I very much look forward to seeing how your ideas evolve.
This is exciting; I'll definitely follow the school's development. Signing up for email updates now