Very well researched and very informative....thank you for that balanced perspective.... whenever I've thought about the issues surrounding Seneca's character I've often asked myself how would I behave if I was in a similar situation, probably not as well....hahaha.... Sometimes it's so easy for us to pass judgement on something of which we know very little about....we know little of his intentions and motives and what interior forces were driving him at the time...
And when I reflect on the content of his writings I've often felt a sense of gratitude and inspiration at the depth of meaning and practicality of the words he wrote...... It's very difficult to conceive that someone with bad intentions could write in such a manner.....
"You are mistaken if you think that you will get any assistance from this quarter; it is not a physician that dwells here, but a sick man"..
Sounds like a very honest admission from someone who felt that he still had a long way to go.......
Of all the Roman Stoics Epictetus is still my favourite, but Seneca's writings are impressive and so practical that they can't be ignored.
Was not aware of Senecas negative reputation. I’ve read/re-read him many times, for many years; he’s actually my favorite Stoic ‘read’. I’d shutter to think ( not really 😝; that’s out of my control ) what impression people who don’t know me would think if they were reading what “enemies’ wrote of me…
My personal opinion is that accusations of sexism against Seneca are overblown. He was a man of his times and no doubt took as a given the gender roles assigned by his society. Heaven knows, women of his day, given their straitened circumstances, had plenty to be angry about, so perhaps his "accusation" was merely an observation.
I dare say the time may come, probably when all of our bones have long since turned to dust, when the anti-male sentiments of today's mainstream (not to mention "radical") feminists will be branded as personal failings.
There is also the fact that Seneca explicitly said, on multiple occasions, that women are just as capable of rationality as men. I'd rather focus on where these people were ahead of their time than on where they were simply a reflection of such times.
Thank you this article, perfect start to my three day weekend. Yesterday at lunch we were talking about Elon Musk and the modern billionaire class and my conclusion about them rings true for Seneca as well - I believe that beyond a certain point wealth becomes not an indifferent, preferred or not, but a vice that leads to the corruption of character. Heresy in our consumerist society, but the longer I live the more convinced I am that I have been blessed by fortune never to have won the lotteries I used to buy tickets for in my younger days! I learn much from Seneca, both in his explanations of Stoic philosophy and his successes and failures in living them. I love how Seneca describes this as a disease., an ulcer in his breast. I can't help but think how easily Diogenes would have cured Seneca's illness, dragging him from his estate and moving him into a barrel!
Andrew, I like the image of Diogenes leading Seneca to the barrel! And yes, Seneca himself says, in one of his letters to Lucilius, that the problem isn't with wealth per se, but with the corrupting influence that it has on most people.
In addition to your points about Seneca specifically, what do you think of the argument that regardless of a historical philosopher's lifestyle or explicit or implicit support of unacceptable views by modern standards (i.e. sexism, racism), their philosophical views should be examined on the merits of the argument? So in this specific case, regardless of how Seneca lived his life, his works should one, not be ignored and two, evaluated based upon their merit.
We accept accounts of Stoicism from ancient hostile sources such as Sextus Empiricus as accurately describing Stoic doctrine. Why the fuss with accepting accounts from a flawed Stoic?
Doug, I don't actually accept any specific account. I try to triangulate as best as we can among different accounts, taking into consideration whether they are friendly (and the possibly biased in favor) or not (and thus possibly biased against).
Very well researched and very informative....thank you for that balanced perspective.... whenever I've thought about the issues surrounding Seneca's character I've often asked myself how would I behave if I was in a similar situation, probably not as well....hahaha.... Sometimes it's so easy for us to pass judgement on something of which we know very little about....we know little of his intentions and motives and what interior forces were driving him at the time...
And when I reflect on the content of his writings I've often felt a sense of gratitude and inspiration at the depth of meaning and practicality of the words he wrote...... It's very difficult to conceive that someone with bad intentions could write in such a manner.....
"You are mistaken if you think that you will get any assistance from this quarter; it is not a physician that dwells here, but a sick man"..
Sounds like a very honest admission from someone who felt that he still had a long way to go.......
Of all the Roman Stoics Epictetus is still my favourite, but Seneca's writings are impressive and so practical that they can't be ignored.
Thanks again...
David, indeed, it is really hard to reconcile the worst interpretation of Seneca the man with what he writes. Possible, but really hard.
Was not aware of Senecas negative reputation. I’ve read/re-read him many times, for many years; he’s actually my favorite Stoic ‘read’. I’d shutter to think ( not really 😝; that’s out of my control ) what impression people who don’t know me would think if they were reading what “enemies’ wrote of me…
My personal opinion is that accusations of sexism against Seneca are overblown. He was a man of his times and no doubt took as a given the gender roles assigned by his society. Heaven knows, women of his day, given their straitened circumstances, had plenty to be angry about, so perhaps his "accusation" was merely an observation.
I dare say the time may come, probably when all of our bones have long since turned to dust, when the anti-male sentiments of today's mainstream (not to mention "radical") feminists will be branded as personal failings.
There is also the fact that Seneca explicitly said, on multiple occasions, that women are just as capable of rationality as men. I'd rather focus on where these people were ahead of their time than on where they were simply a reflection of such times.
Thank you this article, perfect start to my three day weekend. Yesterday at lunch we were talking about Elon Musk and the modern billionaire class and my conclusion about them rings true for Seneca as well - I believe that beyond a certain point wealth becomes not an indifferent, preferred or not, but a vice that leads to the corruption of character. Heresy in our consumerist society, but the longer I live the more convinced I am that I have been blessed by fortune never to have won the lotteries I used to buy tickets for in my younger days! I learn much from Seneca, both in his explanations of Stoic philosophy and his successes and failures in living them. I love how Seneca describes this as a disease., an ulcer in his breast. I can't help but think how easily Diogenes would have cured Seneca's illness, dragging him from his estate and moving him into a barrel!
Have a nice weekend!
Andrew, I like the image of Diogenes leading Seneca to the barrel! And yes, Seneca himself says, in one of his letters to Lucilius, that the problem isn't with wealth per se, but with the corrupting influence that it has on most people.
Once again, Massimo Pigliucci shows me how little I know--and how complex the ancient world was. Thanks, friend.
Any time, glad you enjoyed it!
In addition to your points about Seneca specifically, what do you think of the argument that regardless of a historical philosopher's lifestyle or explicit or implicit support of unacceptable views by modern standards (i.e. sexism, racism), their philosophical views should be examined on the merits of the argument? So in this specific case, regardless of how Seneca lived his life, his works should one, not be ignored and two, evaluated based upon their merit.
Mark, absolutely. Imagine if we had to judge Christianity by what the Popes were doing during the Middle Ages and Renaissance...
Or in the last two centuries...in fact, as a collapsed Catholic, I do
We accept accounts of Stoicism from ancient hostile sources such as Sextus Empiricus as accurately describing Stoic doctrine. Why the fuss with accepting accounts from a flawed Stoic?
Doug, I don't actually accept any specific account. I try to triangulate as best as we can among different accounts, taking into consideration whether they are friendly (and the possibly biased in favor) or not (and thus possibly biased against).
Yes, of course. I'm just making a point about the excessive devaluing of Seneca as a source.
Serendipitous that this is available just when I'm reading about Seneca in The Quest for Character!
Ah! Good coincidence!
Right, yes!