A great solomonical articulation of the similarities & differences between the ancient & modern conceptualisations of Buddhist mindfulness & the ancient & modern Stoic practices of prosoche/attention. Thank you Massimo!
That’s it Massimo, exactly what my wise teacher has taught me. Time is moving on my friend, there are events needing resolution now if are to have any chance of saving this magnificent Earth.
I’ll probably write an essay on the topic at some point. Literally, of course, it means citizen of the world. Which implies a disregard for national boundaries, ethnicity, race. Everyone is my brother and sister and I ought to treat them accordingly. Everyone is deserving of respect and dignity because they are rational creatures.
My pet theory is that all these practices [a] are ways to induce an 'endorphin' high!
[a] E.g., sitting in an uncomfortable position trying to solve an impossible riddle while someone occasionally hits you with a stick. (Zen) or perhaps better singing at a black church.
This is just my opinion, don't mean to put anyone off who is a fan, but I practiced mindfulness and other meditations for some time and am a bit wary about their current popularity, which I believe is driven at least partly by corporations employing them as a way of combating the anxiety and mental health issues of their employees that the corporations' have caused in the first place. In other words a new opiate for the masses. I frankly think it is overrated. I stopped after the last reorg my company had. I was just as upset by it as if I never meditated at all, and I survived the reorg! That experience led my to try something different. Been a practicing Stoic since. There's another reorg on the way and thanks to my Stoic practice I am in a much better place to face it in every way. And I credit your work for much of that. Thanks Massimo!
Yes, I tend to be skeptical of corporate use of mindfulness, or Stoicism for that matter. As you say, it’s an easy and cheap way to shift responsibility from the company to the employee.
Well I knew nothing of this heretofore and now I am starting to understand. Helps to be mindful and pay attention, I reckon. Interesting, as always, Massimo.
"Desire" in Stoic lingo is not what we normally mean by that term. The Greek term is orexis, which translates better as "will to get." So Epictetus is talking about our values and priorities, what we want (or don't want) from life.
Noel, I've seen Caleb's guided meditation. It's a bit weird, as it looks like a mix of Stoic and Buddhist approaches, which in my mind don't work very well together. Also, keep in mind that as far as we can tell the Stoics recommended writing as a form of meditation, not listening.
As for Mary, good essays, but she says: "I find that Buddhist techniques on an ongoing basis combined with Stoic ones on an as needed basis work best for me to maximize my equanimity." For me it is the exact opposite. But I'm sure this is a matter of personality and perhaps cultural background.
I wrote my further reflection comment before seeing your reply, Massimo. I concur re Caleb's meditation, but I think he's trying to combine/synthesize for better results. Like all forms of meditation, I expect that it will work for some and not others. And, as with Mary, "individual results will vary" - depending on the types of Buddhist and Stoic meditations that are practiced. I'm pleased that you mentioned writing/journaling, which I haven't encountered as a practice in Eastern wisdom traditions or Western (spiritual) traditions. But it is very much within what I consider to be "contemplative practice," and be enormously beneficial for developing insight and discipline. Thank you for your response and for all you do. I've benefited from your posts, books and podcasts over the years.
Upon further reflection, I'd offer an observation and two comments based on a few years of experience with Vipassana (insight) meditation, nondual direct path meditation, centering prayer, Christian mysticism, and stoic meditations (with William Irvine, Stoa app, etc.): First, structured mental activity in the form of contemplative practices can serve many purposes and achieve many outcomes. No one size fits all, and diversity of practices pervades and prevails. Second, the, or at least a, relevant question for Stoic philosophers and practitioners is which contemplative practices enhance the ability to live the good life from the perspective of Stoicism. Third, trying to shoehorn Stoic meditation/prosoche into one of the mindfulness molds is likely to be less productive than perfecting a contemplative practice that is optimized for helping practitioners live the good Stoic life.
I definitely agree with your third point: shoe-horning isn't helpful. Regarding your second point, one answer is meditations like the sunrise one, described by Marcus Aurelius in Meditations XI.27. And yes, agree with your first point as well.
They will not work for everyone, but Bill Irvine's guided Stoic meditations on Sam Harris' Waking Up app have been beneficial for me, especially The Last Time Meditation, Negative Visualization, Bedtime Meditation, Search for Silver Linings, You Are Living the Dream Life, and Prospective Retrospection. Note that Harris put these in the app's "Life" section rather than the "(Mindfulness) Practice" section, clearly making the point that Stoic meditation is different from traditional Vipassana and direct path Buddhist meditation approaches in his opinion.
Thanks for the essay, Massimo. Great way to wake up (still lying here in a cozy bed). It answered a couple of theoretical questions I had in my own mind after attending Tanner and Kai's excellent session on Stoic "meditation". I think I get the whole concept. So, time to get out of bed (late shifts, so not an early riser like yourself and Morton!) and try to put it all into practice.
Apr 17, 2023·edited Apr 18, 2023Liked by Massimo Pigliucci
As a philosophical layman, I have the luxury of not having to have an opinion about what someone meant, but I do have a lot of curiosity, and a lot of respect for you professional philosophers. I appreciate your essays! My concern is what works for my practice and otherwise I suspend judgement. (I appreciate your writings especially because of your perspective is influenced by an academic skeptic approach.)
Meditation has been a great help to me in the last twenty years. I learned to meditate originally from a secular Buddhist group. I have never been able able to clear my mind of thoughts, but I have been able to detach myself from them, especially from any emotional charges that they may otherwise bring.
Where Stoic teachings have been helpful is that they allow me to engage in everyday life without my present experiences being filtered by my emotions from past experiences. Things like the dichotomy of control and other teachings help me remember that virtue is the priority, anything else I desire or fear is only a preferred or a dis-preferred indifferent.
Bob, your appreciation is appreciated! And yes, let us never lose track of the fact that the theory is interesting, but it's the practice that really counts!
The 3 disciplines of Epictetus has clarified a lot in 3 simple words. I would like to change the order. Desire is the root cause of suffering as the Buddha would put it. If there is no desire it prevents us from Judging & as a result our Action becomes easier to deal or accept other people.
Thanks for the essay. I always look forward on Monday mornings to read what you have thought about & now sharing it.
Thanks Naresh. Of course, when comparing Epictetus's three disciplines with Buddhism is always good to keep in mind that the goal in Stoicism is not to abstain from judgment, but rather to train ourselves to come up with the best judgment possible.
I’m happy that I seemed to have learned to abstain from acting upon immediate judgments, so I can rationally decide what I should do or say. The immediate judgment or thought is still there. But I am responsible for my second thought and my first action.
Need to expand on my early morning comment. I hate to use the dirty word "market" but we have to look at it. We can use market simply in terms of business. We hear the term "it's just business" as if it gives us carte blanche to act however we want. I think that's more than short sided. If we use Stoicism in its "purest" sense how big a market do we have. I see Stoicism as a road map to treating each other as citizens of the world. Times are changing and we best all get on board.
Right, “it’s just business” does seem to be taken as implying that anything goes. But it doesn’t. And yes, I think cosmopolitanism is arguably the main point of Stoicism.
A great solomonical articulation of the similarities & differences between the ancient & modern conceptualisations of Buddhist mindfulness & the ancient & modern Stoic practices of prosoche/attention. Thank you Massimo!
That’s it Massimo, exactly what my wise teacher has taught me. Time is moving on my friend, there are events needing resolution now if are to have any chance of saving this magnificent Earth.
How do we pick your brain on the definition of cosmopolitanism
I’ll probably write an essay on the topic at some point. Literally, of course, it means citizen of the world. Which implies a disregard for national boundaries, ethnicity, race. Everyone is my brother and sister and I ought to treat them accordingly. Everyone is deserving of respect and dignity because they are rational creatures.
My pet theory is that all these practices [a] are ways to induce an 'endorphin' high!
[a] E.g., sitting in an uncomfortable position trying to solve an impossible riddle while someone occasionally hits you with a stick. (Zen) or perhaps better singing at a black church.
Agree 100%. Many breathing practices produce the same effect, and are less costly and time consuming. A cold shower or ice bath will work too.
My favorite path to endorphins is a dirty martini. To be sipped with friends. Three olives. I don’t care if it’s shaken or stirred.
Ah yes, those were the days [some 30 years ago] before being replaced by an awareness and determination to simply stop.
Amazing what one can do.
This is just my opinion, don't mean to put anyone off who is a fan, but I practiced mindfulness and other meditations for some time and am a bit wary about their current popularity, which I believe is driven at least partly by corporations employing them as a way of combating the anxiety and mental health issues of their employees that the corporations' have caused in the first place. In other words a new opiate for the masses. I frankly think it is overrated. I stopped after the last reorg my company had. I was just as upset by it as if I never meditated at all, and I survived the reorg! That experience led my to try something different. Been a practicing Stoic since. There's another reorg on the way and thanks to my Stoic practice I am in a much better place to face it in every way. And I credit your work for much of that. Thanks Massimo!
I can easily understand why he credits you Massimo.
Yes, I tend to be skeptical of corporate use of mindfulness, or Stoicism for that matter. As you say, it’s an easy and cheap way to shift responsibility from the company to the employee.
Well I knew nothing of this heretofore and now I am starting to understand. Helps to be mindful and pay attention, I reckon. Interesting, as always, Massimo.
Appreciated, my friend!
May I ask another question which my boss (wife) asked
Desire has to be important as it creates motivation? How do I get my head around that?
Appreciate your response.
"Desire" in Stoic lingo is not what we normally mean by that term. The Greek term is orexis, which translates better as "will to get." So Epictetus is talking about our values and priorities, what we want (or don't want) from life.
Well argued and balanced. But Caleb's post today makes the key point in practical terms - https://www.stoaletter.com/p/mindfulness-meditation-stoics . Mary Braun provides perspective from actual practice that is helpful to consider: https://modernstoicism.com/stoic-vs-buddhist-mindfulness-by-mary-braun/
Noel, I've seen Caleb's guided meditation. It's a bit weird, as it looks like a mix of Stoic and Buddhist approaches, which in my mind don't work very well together. Also, keep in mind that as far as we can tell the Stoics recommended writing as a form of meditation, not listening.
As for Mary, good essays, but she says: "I find that Buddhist techniques on an ongoing basis combined with Stoic ones on an as needed basis work best for me to maximize my equanimity." For me it is the exact opposite. But I'm sure this is a matter of personality and perhaps cultural background.
I wrote my further reflection comment before seeing your reply, Massimo. I concur re Caleb's meditation, but I think he's trying to combine/synthesize for better results. Like all forms of meditation, I expect that it will work for some and not others. And, as with Mary, "individual results will vary" - depending on the types of Buddhist and Stoic meditations that are practiced. I'm pleased that you mentioned writing/journaling, which I haven't encountered as a practice in Eastern wisdom traditions or Western (spiritual) traditions. But it is very much within what I consider to be "contemplative practice," and be enormously beneficial for developing insight and discipline. Thank you for your response and for all you do. I've benefited from your posts, books and podcasts over the years.
A pleasure! I'm learning here as well!
Upon further reflection, I'd offer an observation and two comments based on a few years of experience with Vipassana (insight) meditation, nondual direct path meditation, centering prayer, Christian mysticism, and stoic meditations (with William Irvine, Stoa app, etc.): First, structured mental activity in the form of contemplative practices can serve many purposes and achieve many outcomes. No one size fits all, and diversity of practices pervades and prevails. Second, the, or at least a, relevant question for Stoic philosophers and practitioners is which contemplative practices enhance the ability to live the good life from the perspective of Stoicism. Third, trying to shoehorn Stoic meditation/prosoche into one of the mindfulness molds is likely to be less productive than perfecting a contemplative practice that is optimized for helping practitioners live the good Stoic life.
I definitely agree with your third point: shoe-horning isn't helpful. Regarding your second point, one answer is meditations like the sunrise one, described by Marcus Aurelius in Meditations XI.27. And yes, agree with your first point as well.
They will not work for everyone, but Bill Irvine's guided Stoic meditations on Sam Harris' Waking Up app have been beneficial for me, especially The Last Time Meditation, Negative Visualization, Bedtime Meditation, Search for Silver Linings, You Are Living the Dream Life, and Prospective Retrospection. Note that Harris put these in the app's "Life" section rather than the "(Mindfulness) Practice" section, clearly making the point that Stoic meditation is different from traditional Vipassana and direct path Buddhist meditation approaches in his opinion.
There goes one thing I agree with Sam about!
Thanks for the essay, Massimo. Great way to wake up (still lying here in a cozy bed). It answered a couple of theoretical questions I had in my own mind after attending Tanner and Kai's excellent session on Stoic "meditation". I think I get the whole concept. So, time to get out of bed (late shifts, so not an early riser like yourself and Morton!) and try to put it all into practice.
Daniel, well, I'm not a particularly early riser. But I have the advantage of being in Rome right now, six hours ahead of the East Coast... 😆
Oops. Forgot you were there!
On another note, reading some of the comments, I, too, find the writing/journaling bit particularly helpful.
Thanks again for the essay and clarifications.
As a philosophical layman, I have the luxury of not having to have an opinion about what someone meant, but I do have a lot of curiosity, and a lot of respect for you professional philosophers. I appreciate your essays! My concern is what works for my practice and otherwise I suspend judgement. (I appreciate your writings especially because of your perspective is influenced by an academic skeptic approach.)
Meditation has been a great help to me in the last twenty years. I learned to meditate originally from a secular Buddhist group. I have never been able able to clear my mind of thoughts, but I have been able to detach myself from them, especially from any emotional charges that they may otherwise bring.
Where Stoic teachings have been helpful is that they allow me to engage in everyday life without my present experiences being filtered by my emotions from past experiences. Things like the dichotomy of control and other teachings help me remember that virtue is the priority, anything else I desire or fear is only a preferred or a dis-preferred indifferent.
Bob, your appreciation is appreciated! And yes, let us never lose track of the fact that the theory is interesting, but it's the practice that really counts!
The 3 disciplines of Epictetus has clarified a lot in 3 simple words. I would like to change the order. Desire is the root cause of suffering as the Buddha would put it. If there is no desire it prevents us from Judging & as a result our Action becomes easier to deal or accept other people.
Thanks for the essay. I always look forward on Monday mornings to read what you have thought about & now sharing it.
Thanks Naresh. Of course, when comparing Epictetus's three disciplines with Buddhism is always good to keep in mind that the goal in Stoicism is not to abstain from judgment, but rather to train ourselves to come up with the best judgment possible.
I’m happy that I seemed to have learned to abstain from acting upon immediate judgments, so I can rationally decide what I should do or say. The immediate judgment or thought is still there. But I am responsible for my second thought and my first action.
Exactly!
Tom, that's right, the specific term is unimportant. What matters is some kind of practice that helps you dealing with life's issues.
Thanks my friend.
Morton, you certainly are an early riser!
Need to expand on my early morning comment. I hate to use the dirty word "market" but we have to look at it. We can use market simply in terms of business. We hear the term "it's just business" as if it gives us carte blanche to act however we want. I think that's more than short sided. If we use Stoicism in its "purest" sense how big a market do we have. I see Stoicism as a road map to treating each other as citizens of the world. Times are changing and we best all get on board.
Right, “it’s just business” does seem to be taken as implying that anything goes. But it doesn’t. And yes, I think cosmopolitanism is arguably the main point of Stoicism.